We have a beautiful Calico stray cat outside our house. We played with her one day and she just followed us home from about half a mile away. We've been feeding her every day since then.

But every time I open the door to go in/come out of the house, this cat keeps trying to come in our house. She doesn't even want anything from us. She just wants to be in our house with us. It breaks our heart to put her outside, but we just cannot take her in right this minute.

I'd love some guidance on being able to bring this cat in.

About the cat:

  1. Girl Calico looks like about a year and a half old.
  2. She used to live in an abandoned house about half a mile from our house.
  3. The abandoned house has about 50 stray cats (NOT joking). Not a single one of them ever came to us.
  4. She is so friendly, it makes me think she was once a domesticated cat thrown out of the house.
  5. She has long and SHARP claws.
  6. She doesn't really know how to control her claws. She always pushes her claws out when playing with us. She climbs up our legs so rough, I have holes in my jeans.

Our problems with the cat coming in:

  1. As I said, this cat lived with about 50 other cats. So she probably has fleas and ticks and whatever else there is.
  2. We have a 16 month old who doesn't really know how to be nice to the cat. The cat is incredibly patient, but I am not trying to push it.
  3. We have a 16 month old and we do not want to risk the baby getting ticks or fleas or something else from this cat.
  4. We do not really have a lot of money to spare for the cat's health expenses.

My questions:

  1. Could I go to a department store or a pharmacy and pick something up that would clean the cat up all-around?
  2. I HATE declawing and would not do it. Is there a less crueler process to make their claws not as sharp?
  3. The cat's eyes always have some liquid leaking out of them. What could this be and what could I do regarding that?

Note: I am trying my best to bring this cat inside my house given the temperatures are dropping severely outside. She is cold. She wants to be in our house more than anything. I just need to get things straightened out first.

Note 2: I know she NEEDS to go to the vet, we are just a bit financially tight for the time being.

Thank you.

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    Our Q&A as mentioned by @motosubatsu is I can't afford vet treatment, what are my options? it is a work in progress. Commented Dec 12, 2017 at 17:01
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    Contact your local humane societies. One near me did the whole deal for ~$40; rabies, distemper, FLV, a shot of antibiotics, a chip, S&N - but NOT de-clawed. That easily could be over $200 at a 'real' vet. Mention that it's a stray and you'd like to keep it. Companies like that exist to help cats, not to make people money. - Flees are your problem to deal with after all that, and it probably just has a cold.
    – Mazura
    Commented Dec 12, 2017 at 18:23
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    one thing worth pointing out: if you're not willing to keep her as a full-time indoor cat, she needs those big sharp claws to help her survive! if she's in an abandoned house with 50 other cats, she probably needs them to even defend her bit of space there, discourage other cats from picking on her, as well as do things like hunting and maybe fending off predators.
    – user371366
    Commented Dec 12, 2017 at 20:02
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    Declawing just seems wrong. However I only owned from kitten onwards and I had the opportunity to teach when or when not to use claws (exception: when playing with a string. Do NOT accidentally drag that across bare feet).
    – Hennes
    Commented Dec 12, 2017 at 20:03
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    Declawing is cruel and many vets will no longer do it. It’s the equivalent to cutting off your fingers at the first knuckle. There are many alternatives.
    – M.Mat
    Commented Dec 12, 2017 at 20:27

12 Answers 12


Thank you for your concern for the little homeless kitty. While it's very likely the cat has fleas and intestinal parasites, the good news is cat fleas do not feed on humans. I used to rescue dirty, sad, abandoned cats and never once was bitten by a flea or any other skin parasite.

Treating the fleas is best done with a medicine applied to the back of the neck in my opinion. Advantage II is an example of this. These can be pricey at around $40 or $50. The flea collars are cheaper but be aware you cat will be wearing a potent poison around its neck. This is not good for cats, people who pet them, or babies in the house. If you go the flea collar route, just keep the cat away from the baby and wash your hands after handling the cat. Naturally, don't touch the collar.

The fleas are not good for the cat, but it is unlikely they will cause your cat any serious harm if you have to wait a while before treating the fleas.

If you just want to clean the cat up, Vet's Best No-Rinse Clean Waterless Cat Shampoo is about $5 on Amazon and very easy to use, and involves no potentially traumatic (for both owner and cat) baths in the sink.

The alternative to declawing is manually clipping your cat's nails. This requires some finesse, technique, and getting your cat used to the process, but it is not too difficult. There are also glue-one cat nail covers (think fake nails for cats), but they are a costlier solution.

As far as the cat's eyes go, what you describe sounds like an eye infection. These are very common in strays and feral cats. You can try gently dabbing the eyes with a moistened cotton ball to remove any liquids or dried-on exudate. If the liquid is yellowish, greenish, or brownish, it may be a bacterial infection. This may clear up on its own or may require a topical antibiotic ointment.

A good vet will get you a broad spectrum ointment without you having to make a more costly office visit. Also, some stores will sell animal antibiotics over the counter. Terramycin is a good one. Do not use antibiotics sold for human use on a cat.

One thing to keep in mind is while you may not be able to perfectly care for the cat, and your baby may be a little rough with the cat, the cat will be much better off just living in your house, under your care and protection, getting regular meals.

The average life expectancy for a feral cat is about 4 years. Under your care she can live 4 or 5 times this or more.

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    Clipping or capping claws is fine for an indoor-only cat, but a cat that lives outside, even part time, needs sharp claws for defense.
    – JPhi1618
    Commented Dec 12, 2017 at 16:24
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    This is not quite correct. While cat fleas generally do not feed on humans, they nevertheless try to and bite, but since the skin is too thick at the most places, they can't get in. There is a chance to transfer diseases that way.
    – PlasmaHH
    Commented Dec 12, 2017 at 16:45
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    If the cat goes out to meet its friends, it will come back with fleas, ticks, internal parasites, etc. every time. You will need to medicate the lot of them.
    – RedSonja
    Commented Dec 13, 2017 at 9:18
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    Do NOT cut the nails of a cat that is allowed to go outside. It will be unable to defend itself in a fight and cannot climb properly to escape danger. Nail clipping is for indoor cats only. Commented Dec 13, 2017 at 12:19
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    Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
    – Henders
    Commented Dec 13, 2017 at 17:49

Before you get too far, it's just worth checking that the cat isn't microchipped. Any vet or animal shelter should be able to do this, and (in the UK) I wouldn't expect to be charged.

You say it appears to have been a pet in the past; it could well be a long-lost pet, and the chip may help it to be reunited with its previous humans.

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    I will definitely do that. I think I've heard this from someone before: If you take a stray pet to the vet, they usually check for a chip to make sure I am not bringing in a stolen pet. I am not absolutely sure about that, but I will remember to ask the pet to do it. Thanks Commented Dec 13, 2017 at 21:57
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    @CrazyCucumber it's a cat. Asking nicely won't get you very far (great typo in the last sentence of your comment).
    – Chris H
    Commented Dec 13, 2017 at 22:01
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    While a very good point, this seems more like a comment than an answer to me
    – Mawg
    Commented Dec 14, 2017 at 9:44
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    @Mawg from the Q: I'd love some guidance on being able to bring this cat in. "Check it doesn't belong to someone -- here's one way " in the comments would probably be deleted as being too much like an answer
    – Chris H
    Commented Dec 14, 2017 at 9:47

My comment extended itself as it was written.
So, to help with at least part of the issues:

Anti-flea-treatments are available in most pet-stores, and easy to apply.
You CAN trim the claws without declawing the cat. There are special trimmers for just that, and it should help with the issue.
For external parasites, you may be able to give the cat a bath, so pick up a shampoo for getting rid of those.

Now, it seems you are willing to pay for a vet, but are currently just not able to go the whole mile for a whole check-up, parasite-treatment, possibly vaccinations. Many vets will accept you to pay off the treatment over several months. Just ask, worst case is they say no.

It is one lucky cat that found you :).

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    Thank you! I didn't know "payment plans" were an option for the vet. First pet in the US. I will definitely try that out. If that works, my whole problem might be fixed :) Commented Dec 12, 2017 at 15:28
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    There are sometimes low-cost vet clinics that your local animal shelter might know about. They do spay/neutering as well as shots and other important services.
    – JPhi1618
    Commented Dec 12, 2017 at 16:26
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    @CrazyCucumber speak to the vet about contact flea control options; stuff that stays on the skin and kills fleas on contact (well, within an hour or so). This will address the issue of the cat picking up fleas from its colony or elsewhere. PLEASE NOTE, grocery store flea collars (Hartz, etc) can cause serious allergic reactions with some cats; topical flea treatments are a good bit more expensive, but have far fewer adverse reactions.
    – Doktor J
    Commented Dec 13, 2017 at 16:15

Some cats won't take no for an answer. My gran was adopted earlier this year by (definitely this way around!) a gorgeous black and white stray cat; we noticed him sitting at the end of the driveway for a few days, slowly working up the courage to get closer, until we invited him in. We haven't been able to get rid of him since! We discovered through a vet he was indeed microchipped, and though the vet tried all the phone numbers associated with it, nobody answered. So he's become ours, and is a wonderful companion to my elderly grandmother.

Although you're right to be cautious around strays, cats are surprisingly resilient animals and extremely clean. To treat what the cat cannot naturally, a dose of flea treatment and wormer and you'll see the difference - the gel you use on the back of the neck (Frontline SpotOn in the UK) is so effective, you can sometimes see the fleas dropping off the cat, who will be just as startled as you are! Living rough may also give the cat some dietary requirements - ours only tolerates a single brand of dry food, as wet food seems to cause allergies to flare up on his ears, which makes him scratch them until the fur wears off.

Stray cats sometimes have some behaviour oddities to watch out for. When stroked vigorously, our cat would often, without warning, bite and scratch, and then immediately run away. My sister describes this as 'petting aggression', where the cat is overstimulated by the attention and lashes out, and then was previously abused due to this so had learned to flee to avoid being hit. We had to be tolerant of his warning nips, but as a result, he has grown very used to affection and no longer bites. He also no longer runs away, as we've proved to him that he won't be hit. The claws issue can be addressed with a bit of cat psychology, as suggested, or if you want to train her out of climbing up on you, physically pick up the cat and move her some feet away whenever she tries it. She will soon get the message.

Cats are often solitary animals and quite self-serving. It's an achievement to find a cat who will willingly stay with you! In my experience, these kinds of cats will give back as much affection as they receive, and make great pets, especially with children. They're also very independent and very capable of looking after themselves - our cats have had very, very few vet visits. It's cars that are the main danger to them.

As others have said, cats and children get along very well. Supervision is, of course, required, but unlike dogs, I have not heard any stories of cats randomly attacking babies. My parents had cats all while my sister and I were babies. There's even a school of thought that suggests cats and dogs may strengthen children's immune systems by exposing them to mild microorganisms regularly.

Although you say you are not in a financial position to take on the cat, it's unlikely the eye infection will be serious if she is still playful. A short course of eye drops will likely be inexpensive, and flea drops and wormer can be bought at a supermarket. She sounds very much like a cat who will give back what you can give to her, so I hope you find a way to take her in - she might make a good Xmas present to you all!


If you are fortunate, there may be a charity near you that will help you take care of the cat and/or find it a permanent home. For example, I know that Chicago, Illinois has an organization called CRISP that does just that.

It is probably worth looking around to see if there is anybody in your community who can help you take care of this cat.


Once a cat is fully grown (around 8 months) you can't tell its age by its appearance. She could be one or ten and look the same.

Presuming the cat doesn't have an owner who is missing her, it would be great if you could provide a loving home for her.


Claws are a natural part of a cat. They have no idea that they can hurt people with them. To a cat, their claws are simply a way of grabbing things. Be patient! Don't get her declawed. Declawing amputates each finger/toe at the last digit, cruelly mutilating the cat. I believe this practice is illegal in Australia and if it is an option in your country, I advise you on behalf of your cat, not to do it.

The smaller she is, the sharper her claws will be. However, larger cats are more powerful, so can still create unintentional damage. If she will be inside most of the time, get her a scratching post. You can also get a claw trimmer that snips the sharp part of the claws off. Some cats tolerate this very well. Other cats freak out. Don't trim the claws too far back or you will hurt her and draw blood. Avoid the pink area (living tissue).

Even if you trim her claws, she will still need to scratch, whether it's outside on trees or inside on a scratching post (or your furniture, if you don't provide a scratching post!). Scratching removes the outer layer of the claw when it has become loose, revealing a fresh, sharper claw underneath. The fresh claw gradually bluntens as the cat goes about her business until another one is ready.


You will need to apply some cat psychology. Why is she climbing up your leg? One of my cats does this when she wants a cuddle (and she won't take no for an answer!) One of my mother's cats used to do this when he wanted food (human or cat!) My mother initially thought it was cute until he started hurting her on a regular basis.

I usually wear jeans, so the claws don't hurt me, but they do pull threads on my clothes, which I'd rather they didn't. You might need to wear thicker pants while trying to discourage her from climbing up you. This will take time, and she will most likely never stop doing it completely.

Cats learn how to play as kittens. Humans will either teach them to play rough (claws out, attack immediately) or gentle (claws mostly in, no attacking). The trick is not to encourage attacking behaviour, and not to sharply withdraw your hand if attacked (this takes some doing!). If you withdraw your hand, that become part of the game, and she will enjoy "winning" by catching your hand, unintentionally scratching you at the same time.

If she starts attacking you gently and you can bear it, leave your hand completely motionless and limp. This quickly becomes boring for her (she wants a reaction) and if you're lucky she will learn not to attack you in play. With all of my three cats, I can quickly reach down and rub their tummies when they're on their back without fear of attack! Some other cats would instantly attack, but this is mostly a learnt behaviour, not instinctive. The more she trusts you to do this and she enjoys it, the less likely she is to use her claws on you, even in play.


There are many treatments on the market. Some you can get from a vet, some from a pet store. While they are expensive initially, they usually have multiple doses, so the cost is spread over many months. This doesn't help if you have very little money right now, however!

Fleas prefer cats and dogs, but will bite humans if they can't find a furry host. Flea bites are painful. I know from personal experience! Fleas are remarkable little creatures with many survival strategies. If she does have fleas and you have carpet, depending on the season you might already have flea eggs in your house.

Flea eggs can survive for six months and are usually dormant over winter, so you will need to keep an eye on the situation. Vacuuming is a good way of getting rid of most of the eggs, the trouble is that you don't know where they are so you have to be very thorough. Even so, you might miss spots that fleas can get to and you can't. If she goes outside at all, you will need to keep treating her for fleas. My cats got fleas from a lost kitten that I rescued (before I found its home) and it took me two years to get them completely flea-free again.

You can get free local advice at a pet store, although a vet might give you better information (depends both on the pet store and the vet).

Liquid discharge from eyes

Eye infections are very common in cats. Some are serious, some are less so. It could clear up by itself, or it could need treatment. She needs to be examined by a vet to determine the best course of action. Some treatments are effectively free in the less serious cases, using things you already have in your house. She might need medicine. Only a vet can advise you.


You shouldn't let the cat have unsupervised access to the baby, for both of their sakes. Cats are generally good with babies, recognising that they are infants, and not fully rational. Growing up, we had the nastiest cat ever. He would not hesitate to bite you or attack you at the slightest provocation. However, he never hurt a baby, no matter how much he was provoked.

If this cat has some trauma, she might have triggers that your baby (or you) set off accidentally. It might take months before she gets triggered, or she might be mentally healthy and it's not a problem. She's more likely to get triggered as you all get more comfortable, and you accidentally do something innocuous you think she'd be fine with, but she reacts badly. Or she doesn't have any triggers. Only time will tell.

One of my cats (an ex-stray) didn't like me touching her head for the first couple of years (some unknown previous trauma), but now I have her trust and she loves it!


Make sure she's sterilised. If she's already been done, then you know she's come from someone's home, which seems likely considering how friendly you've described her. Obviously, only a vet can do this for you and you don't want her to have a litter (or multiple litters) of kittens that you have to find homes for, so it's another reason for getting her to a vet sooner rather than later. Vets in Australia won't desex a pregnant cat but your country might differ (not advised).


If things go well, she will become part of your family. If your baby was sick, would you wait until you could afford treatment to take it to the doctor? Look into ways the cat can get treatment now, before any undiagnosed issues become serious. As mentioned in the comments, I can't afford vet treatment, what are my options? might be able to help you. Long term, owning cats has been quite affordable for me. I guess food would be AU$20 per month, preventative treatments AU$10 per month, plus annual health checks and the occasional sickness (one per three cats per year).

Good luck! She sounds adorable and quite lucky to find a family who is willing to take her in. I hope she is a furry bundle of joy for you for many years to come!


A note about the eye discharge, if its red/brown, and eventually crusts it very well might be feline herpes (FVR). This is NOT related to human herpes and cats can only transmit it to other cats. If she is sneezing a lot, or her eyes are red, a course of antibiotic eyedrops will get her over the worst, but it may come back someday.

Look into CareCredit if you think you want/need to put more money out than you have on hand, but are okay paying over time. Its a low interest line of credit made for use at doctors and dentists, but many vets have started accepting it too.

You can learn to trim her claws, but as a feral/rescue it'll take some time of you playing with her and handling her paws that she will let you, but most vets will offer to trim the claws for you for a small fee. This might be worth it the first couple of times.

Best of luck with your new family member!


I trained my kitten to like getting his claws clipped. I'd give him a treat per every few claws he'd let me clip. It took a few times but now he knows to come when I pull the clippers out. He gets excited (so he'll wiggle a bit for treats) but otherwise lets me clip his claws.

Thank you for your interest in the homeless kitty! Your local rescue might be able to help you offset the cost of getting the kitty to a vet to get shots and such. I get stronghold (revolution) for fleas and ticks from the UK or Australia since they don't require prescription and it's cheaper.


If you need to buy yourself enough time to enter or leave your property you house use the patent humane cat trap. This consists of placing two cardboard boxes about 4 feet apart just outside you front door. The cat will approach your property, see one of the boxes and immediately go to sit in it. However, as it does so it will notice the second box and move toward that instead, when is will se the first cardboard box, again and again move to sit in that, again, when again it will see the second box and move to sit in that etc etc..

Just a warning, remember to tie a length of string to one of the boxes so you can remove it once you have made safe passage. Else you'll come across a indecisive feline with a sore neck stuck between two cardboard boxes when you next transit your property. Thankyou.


I've had a lot of experience with dogs, less so with cats. But if the cat wants to be with you, I would suggest you let her in, and carefully clip back her claws. If she lets you do this without shredding you, then you have a bond of trust established. For dogs, that is key. Probably same with cats, but each animal is different.

I had two dogs, and found a stray or ran-away, very young puppy in my forest at my farm. The puppy was a mess - but she was crazy smart and healthy. She required a couple of vet visits for de-worming pills and for rabies shots. You must get rabies shots for the cat if you let her it, if you are in North America, as rabies is everywhere.

Our pup had ticks and worms. The de-worming pills will kill the worms, and you can get bug-kill collars that will destroy the ticks. You should comb her fur to remove any other stuff (plant burrs, dirt, old scabs, etc.). I am not a doctor, but I think that exposure to animals and natural, outdoor environmental agents - even if they cause issues - can be very helpful in preventing illness. There are studies that support this assertion.

The cat does present risk to the child - but she may also confer benefits, which may outweigh the risks. Our "bush-puppy" has brought great benefit to us all. She acts like a "Momma Dog", to keep our two male dogs from fighting, and is a dilligent watchdog and companion. Your cat-friend has made a deliberate choice, and you might find that she brings benefits to the family that may well outweigh the costs.

Phone around and get several quotes from vets, and find one that is cost-efficient. We use a vet that is connected with a local vet collage. They have student-vets, who are good, and their fees are low (so they are always busy). You need to make sure the cat gets basic shots and has access to someone with skills, in case an injury happens or something complicated goes wrong. If you let her in, first and foremost, show her where the litter-box is, and if she pees or poops somewhere she shouldn't, pick her up and put her in the litter box. She will figure out quickly that that is the place where she has to do her poop.

You will probably need to get her fixed also. We tried not fixing our little pup, but after a couple of "heats" that was not an option. Again, phone around for quotes. For spaying dogs, the cost is all over the place - from $1000 at a premium small-animal vet, to $85 at a special SPCA clinic in another town, about an hour's drive away. I opted for the clinic, where they would do many dogs in one day. I suspect you can find the same arrangement for cats - as a female cat in heat will draw toms from all around - plus she will make an awful noise, like a baby crying loudly.

But you don't have to accept the high-price vets - call your local animal shelter, and find out who they use. They might even be able to put you onto a clinic, where the cost is often much lower.

Having the cat (like with any pet), won't be zero cost. But you will probably find that the benefits are much greater. As I type this, my oldest dog (a small Jack Russel) is asleep on my lap. He has been a dear friend, and helpful companion. Your cat will probably be the same, especially as it sounds like she has already made the choice.


You need to clip both front and back nails with fingernail clippers. I have found that when young they do this thing where they don't depend on them as much. She WILL NEED to be fixed. It's $20 here at the cheap place. She will come into heat. She will need her shots, a scratching post and two litter boxes. If she is friendly she will remain so most likely. If you could do this you have rescued her from a sad life.

Remember the most important thing for a cat is it territory so don't take re-homing lightly. She could be your child's best life long friend. Fleas... WalMart makes a pet armour based on Advantix 2. 4 pack for ex large cat then do the math and give her the same as for her smaller weight to save money. Purina cat chow and wet food 1 or 2 times a week.

You guys remind her of her first family that she seems to miss very much. I think you would in time be very pleased with what you get back from her. So many people just move and leave their cat outside and the poor cat will wait for weeks before giving up. They are not disposable. So thank you for trying to help and take time to learn cat behavior you will enjoy her more. Tail UP = Happy.

And get her fixed ASAP ASAP. She will come in heat and become vocal and you will not like her during this but it is not her fault. It's painful and distressing for her and she will keep coming back in heat until kittens are on the way.


Let me say that I don't like cats, and I think that places like that 50 strays house your talking about are just a den of evil and should be closed down. I wanted to get that out of the way so you know where I am coming from, and my bias.

First and foremost, TNVR. Trap, Neuter, Vaccinate and Release. Whether you keep the cat or not, get this done, if it hasn't already been done. Most places offer discounts and programs to help with the cost.

Now on to keeping the cat.

From my perspective, kept cats are fine, none of my business so long as they are kept indoors. "Outside cats" I feel like it should be legal to shoot on site. I get that they're cute and people like them, but they are a huge problem. I am a dog lover, and I feel the same way about dogs too. Problem is that people fear dogs more than cats. But outdoor cats are a major issue too. So if you decide to "keep" the cat, then please be prepared to bring it inside, and train it to stay inside. Do not "keep" the cat and let it contribute to the existing cat problem, by letting it roam.

Now on to your specific issues.

As I said, this cat lived with about 50 other cats. So she probably has fleas and ticks and whatever else there is.

Yep, but that's OK. Have a vet check the cat out before bringing her into your home. There isn't much a cat can transmit directly to a human, but there are a few things. The good news is that the likely ones are very easy to test for and treat.

We have a 16 month old who doesn't really know how to be nice to the cat. The cat is incredibly patient, but I am not trying to push it.

Yep, you are going to have to make a call there. Most animals won't hurt most children on purpose, but an untrained, unfamiliar cat, is a risk. One I think you could manage by restricting the cat at first. But whether that's worth it, that's your call

We have a 16 month old and we do not want to risk the baby getting ticks or fleas or something else from this cat.

Fleas - get over it. I know it sounds weird but let your kid be exposed to fleas. It won't hurt them at all. It will itch, but there is no real harm there. That doesn't mean that you don't treat the flea issue, just that every child will be exposed to fleas somewhere. Your house, your parents' house, your friends' house. Even school. Fleas are very common and shouldn't be a problem as all.

Ticks and everything else - Yep, that's a problem. Specially if your baby is at the "I want to try to eat cat poop" age (sounds silly but they go through it). As long as the litter box is kept clean and away from the child you should be ok. Remember the vet visit before you bring the new cat into the home will catch 99% of anything that is an issue to you or your baby's health.

We do not really have a lot of money to spare for the cat's health expenses.

Check with your SPCA. They usually have some kind of program. Around here there is $10 neutering, and free basic meds (within limits) and cat food if you're going to provide a permanent home.

My questions:

Could I go to a department store or a pharmacy and pick something up that would clean the cat up all-around?

No, the best "cleaners" are targeted. Your vet can help with this, but a tick cleaner isn't usually going to do a lot for fleas, for example.

I HATE declawing and would not do it. Is there a less crueler process to make their claws not as sharp?

File them down. Get a scratching post. Take her to a groomer. There is no reason that the cats' claws need to be that sharp, and no reason to keep them so, if you're taking her in. If you're not going to adopt, then let them alone. Don't mess with her ability to hunt.

The cat's eyes always have some liquid leaking out of them. What could this be and what could I do regarding that?

Time for a vet. It could be nothing, it could be serious. No way to tell.

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